A theory - what do ya think . . . ?

WYtumbleweed
I was thinking about what men really mean when they say "I like independent women. I want an independent woman." It seems that when they actually get one, their personalities deteriorate - they seem to develop one or more of the following traits - defensive, controlling, distant, suspicious, lazy, frustrated, pressured, and a few more that I cannot think of at the moment. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me.So, I have a theory:I have come to believe that when a man says "I want to be with an independent woman" he does not mean the same thing as a woman who calls herself "independent."Rather, he means that he wants a woman who can fend for herself when he doesn't feel like stepping up so he does not have to worry about her, who does not need financial contribution from him, who will be there when he wants or needs companionship or support, but who can be shooed away when his needs are filled, and who will not put any pressure on him to do anything - just leave him to decide when and where he wants or doesn't want to do something, and totally move aside when he actually decides to do something and be os so greateful. He wants someone who values him and "needs" him, so he will feel important and desired, but not someone who actually needs anything important from him, particularly when it's inconvenient for him. He wants the perks of having a self-sufficient partner, without any of the responsibilities.To women, independent generally means that we don't need a man, that we can pay our bills with our own income, that we have our own friends and family and support systems, that we have learned to do a lot of things that have traditionally been the "man's job," while we are willing and want other opinions on things, we do not want someone else to make decisions for us without consultation, or to substitute their judgment for ours, and we expect our partner to carry his own weight and contribute equally (whether monetarily, in effort, time, or management) to building a life that we have discussed and BOTH want, we expect him to engage in meaningful conversation with us, to support us when we need support even if the issue is totally unrelated to him, and to have his own interests and to compromise sometimes. Basically, bringing home money, taking out the garbage and fixing the drain are no longer, alone, sufficient qualities in a partner for independent women.

WYtumbleweed
me too, historia . . . the last two fellas of mine seemed very normal, responsible, self-motivating - and "liked independent" women . . . the first got lazy and sedentary and depressed because he was sedentary, and the second got defensive, controlling, bullying AND totally ineffective at making a living. UGH!!!

kerplunkLYN
Wow. Fantastic. You hit the nail on the head! (and didn't need a man to tell you how to do so). I will give you a BRAVO! and a standing ovation...here it is....

bigberthaisreallythin
how about "i want a committment" (and a surrogate wife) without having to take the utimate plunge? he wants an independent woman and then a few months down the road, he says "well you never say that you actually ever need anything...". he wants me self sufficient and independent, but while working and pursuing other projects, he complains that we never really see each other or have any time together....??!!?...so in the middle of juggling a busy life pursing goals, working up the ladder...i'm supposed to tend to his needs???? I.e. he wants me independent, but nurturing and a great (housewife) girlfriend, as well.

Guuuut
He wants the perks of having a self-sufficient partner, without any of the responsibilitiesThis would be perfect. Where do I sign up??How you define this and how it works depends on the relationship. Clearly it is different in marriage then it might be in a live in relationship. My spouse is independent and very competent. We have tasks divided by the things we are good at or don't mind doing. She is better at long term financial decisions because she will read every last document, whereas I don't have the attention span (or interest). I'm rather compulsive at doing the dishes (upbringing) and laundry (I'm better at it!). I wanted a strong, independent woman as a spouse, because I wanted someone that would not cave and collapse if I should suddenly die and leave her alone with kids to raise (insurance only does so much). But it is also clear to me, that if a woman is so independent as to not have a need for me, then I become an appendage and why would I be interested? I don't need a woman either, I'm very independent, always have been. But I want one, just not one so needy or incompetent I have to do everything.

Oh Kay
I'm sorry, but this feels like the independent woman waaaah thread. Did you think it was going to be easy? For years women stayed at home & raised the kids & did what HE said we were going to do.....now the table is turned. So, now we have a say, now we have an income, now we have kids that are overweight & unsocialized....there's always a trade off. I am happy to have what I have. I am happy that even if this guy I love walks away for whatever reason, I will still have me. I am happy that I have a say in the life I live.....

bigberthaisreallythin
kay, have you been married for years or in a long term (maybe live in) relationship?

WYtumbleweed
I'm so tired of it, and really very lonely, even though I am quite happy to be on my own. . . . If that makes sense.TOTALLY - that makes sense to me - that is where I am today . . . lonely, ok being alone and doing my own thing, but still lonely.

WYtumbleweed
BRAVO! and a standing ovationwhy, thank you LYN!

WYtumbleweed
oohhhh bigbertha!!! Thank you for chiming in - I can see that you have experienced the same phenomenon, but you are able to articulate it a bit differently . . . awesome

Oh Kay
kay, have you been married for years or in a long term (maybe live in) relationshipNo. I don't do marriage well, and although I've had some live in romances, my favorite, so far, is the one I have now (how stupid would it be to say this was my least favorite). I do what I do, I see who I see, I take care of me & my kids & I see him when we can work it out.....but I talk to him all the time. Like now, for instance.....brb.

WYtumbleweed
if a woman is so independent as to not have a need for me, then I become an appendage and why would I be interested? I don't need a woman either, I'm very independent, always have been.Guut . . . I appreciate your thoughts . . . and mostly they make sense to me . . . however, the above statement sounds internally inconsistent. If you don't need a woman, why does a woman have to need you for you to be interested? The arrangement you have with your wife sounds like exactly what I have envisioned I would be able to achieve . . . but, alas, it hasn't been so.

bigberthaisreallythin
alright. i'm gonna be open and honest. i am swingin' the fence wondering if i should break it off with my live-in "committed" boyfriend. i do love him and he's great, but if i am expected to carry my own weight- i.e. go dutch, why not just date? i don't do live-ins. its a perpetual booty call. granted, i do love sex. but its complicated living with someone and being independent, but having to do wifey things. for the most part, i do- do wifey things, but in a way its so hard to get used to the idea. i've been hearing that the divorce rates are really bad and yes, it would make TOTAL sense to just live together in a committed relationship, be monogamous and good to each other, but how else can you measure a real-life committment without the LEGAL bond? i can't grasp this idea yet. but i'm thinkin' it'll take some time. i drove my sister away and she thinks i'm crazy....

WYtumbleweed
this feels like the independent woman waaaah thread.not at all . . . I have been mulling this around in my head for months and needed some input to find weaknesses, truths, and make adjustments . . . . it's just a theory . . . now we have a say, now we have an income, now we have kids that are overweight & unsocialized....there's always a trade offum . . . ya lost me here Kay . . . sorry I am happy to have what I have. I am happy that even if this guy I love walks away for whatever reason, I will still have me. I am happy that I have a say in the life I live.....These are the traits of an independent-minded woman.

Oh Kay
If you don't need a woman, why does a woman have to need you for you to be interested? Who wants an uninterested person? Man or woman? Who wants someone who doesn't need you. Love is being needed....think children here. If no one needed anyone we'd be like the freaking snails.....everyone just breeding & giving birth.

Unlikely Unicorn
My only thought is: I haven't met the man I can't live without...but it would be nice to find the one I'd want to live with. Until and after that happens, I'm happy being me.

kerplunkLYN
How you define this and how it works depends on the relationship. Admittedly, you have only been in a few serious relationships. You got it right on the first draw! Lucky you! Most of us aren't so lucky!

WYtumbleweed
bigbertha - my questions: what is he contributing to the partnership, the relationship, besides sex - does he do ANY chores, tasks, provide support or a comfortable companion, or do repairs? Does he work and have an income that would support him independently of your income? Do each of you have similar visions and wants for the future?

Oh Kay
have never expected anything to be easy, I would just like it to be a little easier once in awhile. It is not "waaaah" to lament being lonely, as long as it is not a personality trait. I would never say that I was lonely to anyone in my outside life, so it is a real confession to acknowledge it here. It is exhausting to do everything for yourself, and to be without intimacy in your personal life for long periodsWell I stand by my opinion, you can't have it both ways. I know it's hard, I know it's lonely, I've been there, I'm still there on days.....but we have made a choice & I think that the lonely we feel now is much better than the lonely they felt 40 years ago....

WYtumbleweed
Love is being needed....think children hereWhat if there are no children, Kay? Does that doom someone to temporary, unsatisfying relationships? I would define "need" as you have connected it with love as a FEELING - I need him to be with me - I need to be near him - I need him to understand me - I need him to care about me, etc - I do not need financial support, or someone to handle traditional "male" chores.

WYtumbleweed
well-stated dora #17

Oh Kay
um . . . ya lost me here Kay . . . sorry We've all come so far. I am going to a 7 year olds party next weekend, what does he want? Cards. Games. Nothing that means he's going to be outside moving, being healthy. I have this gigantic fear of being out, being vulnerable, being hurt....I've had to work on this recently. So...if our kids never leave the house because it's easier for the babysitter to keep track of them inside...I picture a world where no one sees anyone.....they are all locked up. Safe. Women work now...that's a good thing....but there are sacrafices that are going to be made.

Oh Kay
but if i am expected to carry my own weight- i.e. go dutch, why not just date? i don't do live-ins. its a perpetual booty call. Do you hear yourself? You can't be independent & expect him to take care of you at the same time.

WYtumbleweed
you can't have it both wayswhy not - men haveWomen work now...that's a good thing....but there are sacrafices that are going to be madeyes - life is balancing - but why is it that the sacrifices always seem to come from our side of the fence . . . we (women) redefined our place and identity in our culture because we thought is would give us more power and control over our lives and leave us less vulnerable . . . of course, men did not want any change, but they are coming around these days to seeing that the balance of power is better now . . . however, they have not filled in the gaps left by our changes - how many truly invovled fathers do you know? How many dad's take off from work to stay home with the kid on a sick day? How many husbands will take the initiative to throw in a load of laundry or do the dishes on a regular basis?And this really is off track from what I was talking about . . . I think

WYtumbleweed
You can't be independent & expect him to take care of you at the same timewhy not . . . this is EXACTLY what a lot of men that I have come across expect . . . "independent" and being "taken care of" are not mutually exclusive.

Oh Kay
What if there are no children, Kay? Does that doom someone to temporary, unsatisfying relationships? I would define "need" as you have connected it with love as a FEELING - I need him to be with me - I need to be near him - I need him to understand me - I need him to care about me, etc - I do not need financial support, or someone to handle traditional "male" chores.You're right. So draw that line. I NEED someone that understands me, someone that trusts me, someone that wants me to have a good life....I don't NEED someone to support me, someone to tell me what to do everyday, someone to order me around.

Guuuut
If you don't need a woman, why does a woman have to need you for you to be interested?I think you have to be needed in some way for a relationship to happen or perhaps the better term is wanted. Maybe we confuse needed and wanted. I wouldn't want to live off someone in a non-marriage situation, I have too much pride. I am not so self absorbed as to believe everything should be done for me or about me, I believe in balance. Perhaps an exception to that might be when it comes to work. I believe it is important to have a roof over one's head and food and the money for those necessitates come from work, so work has a high level of priority. Balance and cooperativity are things that have been very natural in my relationship and I don't find it hard to do. Both my parents and my wife's parents were married a long time (my mom died and her father died) so these behaviors were modeled for us and we know of no other way to live.

WYtumbleweed
I NEED someone that understands me, someone that trusts me, someone that wants me to have a good life....I don't NEED someone to support me, someone to tell me what to do everyday, someone to order me around.yes Kay! This is what I believe most women mean when the say they are "independent."However, I do not believe that it means the same thing when a man says he wants "and independent woman."

Oh Kay
yes - life is balancing - but why is it that the sacrifices always seem to come from our side of the fence . . . we (women) redefined our place and identity in our culture because we thought is would give us more power and control over our lives and leave us less vulnerable . . . of course, men did not want any change, but they are coming around these days to seeing that the balance of power is better now . . . however, they have not filled in the gaps left by our changes - how many truly invovled fathers do you know? How many dad's take off from work to stay home with the kid on a sick day? How many husbands will take the initiative to throw in a load of laundry or do the dishes on a regular basis?In the beginning we were all powerful. We bore the children, we held the power. Men figured this out & turned it around. The facts are....with 20 women & one man, we could populate the earth. Men have tried, through the years, to hide that fact. We've always had the power....we just forgot it. In the beginning the churches worshipped the Goddesses......

WYtumbleweed
I think you have to be needed in some way for a relationship to happen or perhaps the better term is wanted. Yes, I can agree with this. But I do not think that most men understand that they can be needed and wanted quite aside from their capability to take out the garbage, mow the lawn or fix the car.I wouldn't want to live off someone in a non-marriage situationBut it would be OK to live off of someone else if you are married? That sounds odd to me. Is that really what you mean?

bigberthaisreallythin
WYtumbleweed, in our relationship financially- he pays the much larger portion of our living expenses. he does different chores on different days, but he does them without me suggesting or asking. he fixes many things around the house and plans to do a lot more. i do not support him financially, but i'm to be there emotionally and intimately. i find it a little difficult to completely grasp the idea of being the perfect live-in girlfriend (surrogate wife) only because i was raised with traditional christian beliefs of not putting out unless you're married. granted, i'm an adult, i've been married before, so i'm not actually a lily white virgin, but i am a little mixed up with trying to do what's right and acceptable within my morals and ethics, but also trying to grasp the modern, liberal way of doing some things. we have similar visions for the future. i'm in my late 30's, never had any kids and he mentioned wanting them sometime in the future. i'm not opposed to this and he and i have discussed this, however the longer he and i go on, the more i'm hearing he wants to settle down and have kids. when we first met, he was ok with the idea of just working and travelling and enjoying life. now i'm hearing he wants to have kids eventually.